Curse

Sents · Mar 27, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Well after reading this Im kinda relieved, I was kinda dissaspointed when I saw that there were quite a few skills that seemed to be just that, 'clones'.....But I hadnt thought about it from the point of view of someone only having Factions and needing to have some of those same utility type skills/spells/etc...
Guess Id have to say not signed, long as we get a bunch of new skills everytime Im happy. Though I can foresee some possible balance issues, well just have to wait and see how it all washses out.
/not signed

Inari · Mar 27, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Can it not be that they simply renamed several skills?
I mean for example, the changed the name of the necro desecrate enchantments into ______ enchantments (can't remember the name), and they changed the name of the ele spell crystal wave too.

Can it possibly be a mere name change?

Amok · Mar 27, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inari

Can it not be that they simply renamed several skills?
I mean for example, the changed the name of the necro desecrate enchantments into ______ enchantments (can't remember the name), and they changed the name of the ele spell crystal wave too.

Can it possibly be a mere name change?

err yeah that's basically what this whole thread is discussing

Argen · Mar 27, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Not signed... primary reason for this is I have no idea what the long term effects of this will be. I'd like to see what happens when you have the "clone" skills. Unless there is a major balance issue than I really can't think of a major problem. Its not like ANet is cheating us.

If there is an unbalancing skill set, I'm sure we'll see in the next few months. If not, than you can cram your skill bar full of Vampiric this and thats, and steal all the life in the world.

Hella Good · Mar 27, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavy metal rules

IF, doesn't even come into play becuae their not adding 30 duplicate skills...geez

/not signed

Er... yes, they are adding the duplicate skills, this is what we all are talking about... It was confirmed by Anet that that's what they are going to be doing.

Just one thing: people who like the idea seem to be fascinated by the short term effect of creating builds that might as well be over the top. Bottom line is, if this continues, 3-4 chapters down the line we will have more double skills than unique ones and that's just bs. The whole strategic depth thing is going to turn into clone skills galore. And yes, I know that for Factions only players these skills won't appear as doubles, and I'm sure this will be true for other chapters if they continue doing this. But:

no1) it's not necessary, because there is other ways to achieve this (as I have already said 1000 times),

no2) it will create huge confusion (people calling same skills by different names, people not being able to keep up with all the clone skill names, and what they are clone skills of in the 1st place)

no3) it is bound to create balance issues (I mean really.... stacking my whole bar with Divine Healing clones for example will be kind of ridiculous)

no4) will harm the overall impression of the game, because its a CHEAP move.

danakin · Mar 27, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Once again, some of the skills need to be duped, simply for the Factions only players. Don't know why people don't understand this...

/Not Signed

CKaz · Mar 27, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

/signed

Use the same dang name, say the skill can be used 'x' times on the bar then.
These different names are silly. As I posted earlier, can't wait till chp8.

Are these really balanced as well? Several of them I doubt...
I'd say they should of simply made them core skills, doing it this way is very lame.

I'm against doing this in general but if they're going to go through with it be smart about it.

Don't understand how some people don't get the CORE SKILL set and/or the fact they DIDN'T have to be goofily named.

Hella Good · Mar 27, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by danakin

Once again, some of the skills need to be duped, simply for the Factions only players. Don't know why people don't understand this...

/Not Signed

Ok, I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. Just give them the 30 or so skills ANYWAY? WITHOUT doing the cheap renaming.

Loviatar · Mar 27, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

/.

Are these really balanced as well? Several of them I doubt...
I'd say they should of simply made them core skills, doing it this way is very lame.

Don't understand how some people don't get the CORE SKILL set and/or the fact they DIDN'T have to be goofily named.

lets just keep adding core skills to the list.

NEWSFLASH ALL

somebody counted them up and we get the full advertised 300 NEW SKILLS PLUS A BONUS OF ABOUT 30 SKILLS NONE OF WHICH SEEM TO BE MONSTERS OF IMBALANCE

and i will take izzys judgement of balance over yours anytime

NOTE THOSE ARE EXTRA OVER AND ABOVE THE 300 NEW ONES

Quote:

Hella Good

Ok, I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. Just give them the 30 or so skills ANYWAY? WITHOUT doing the cheap renaming and WITHOUT introducing them as NEW skills to the community.

the reason for the rename is specifically to allow both on the bar at the same time.

as stated the small number of dupes were intended and since 2 skills with the same name cant be used at the same time they had to name change.

x-todd · Mar 27, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

ok i have a question. i have been holding off creating an elem or mesmer in prophesies campaign because, welll... ive already beaten the game 3 times with other characters and dont really feel like going thru this campaign much more...

anyway, i am wanting to maybe get into using an elem or mes in the factions game. well by reading a lot of stuff going on, when i create, lets say an elem, in Factions, as i play the factions game, will there be skills that i dont get that are only in prophecies campaign? i just thought that, factions installed like 20 new skills for all the older classes and all the original ones will still be there.
maybe im just confused here....

oh and /not signed

Hella Good · Mar 27, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

lets just keep adding core skills to the list.

NEWSFLASH ALL

somebody counted them up and we get the full advertised 300 NEW SKILLS PLUS A BONUS OF ABOUT 30 SKILLS NONE OF WHICH SEEM TO BE MONSTERS OF IMBALANCE

and i will take izzys judgement of balance over yours anytime

NOTE THOSE ARE EXTRA OVER AND ABOVE THE 300 NEW ONES

That is correct. I just counted them myself. Every profession gets 30 skills instead of the 25 being originally quoted. The 5 more are the dupes. That makes it less of a cheap move, I must say, but I will have to say I still disapprove of the practice.

CKaz · Mar 27, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

lets just keep adding core skills to the list.

NEWSFLASH ALL

somebody counted them up and we get the full advertised 300 NEW SKILLS PLUS A BONUS OF ABOUT 30 SKILLS NONE OF WHICH SEEM TO BE MONSTERS OF IMBALANCE

and i will take izzys judgement of balance over yours anytime

NOTE THOSE ARE EXTRA OVER AND ABOVE THE 300 NEW ONES

the reason for the rename is specifically to allow both on the bar at the same time.

as stated the small number of dupes were intended and since 2 skills with the same name cant be used at the same time they had to name change.

For some reason you quoted me and then went nuts over #s, I don't care about that.
And I'll take testing and gameplay over anyones comments on the matter here re: balance.

And for the record I'll take about anyones post or point before yours, anytime.

Back to my point though -

YOU DON'T NEED renames to have both on the same bar.
Allow a skill to have two instances then, or put a prime mark or a number.
How silly is it for fan sites to cross-link skill discussions now?
When they nerf/tweak a skill, keeping up with these...
This is just Chapter 1 and 2 now, the mess will increase as time goes on.

I'm even saying ok do this if you want (I don't like it and believe its lame but whatever).
But don't make it a mess to track down - get it right now.

Loviatar · Mar 27, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

And for the record I'll take about anyones post or point before yours, anytime.

.

i made no comment about balance except that izzy (dev who does balance issues?) would be more able to judge than you are.

izzy seems to think it wont upset the balance so i go by him not you

Zexion · Mar 27, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Counter arguements are numerous but mainly: if they wanted us to be able to double skills more often, they could've just added one-two more echo-like skill; if they wanted the skills to be available to Factions only characters they could've just added them to core set.

And what when Ch3 is out? What if they wanted, say Life Siphon, to be avaiable for Ch1 and Ch2, but not Ch3? Then they could not just make it a core skill. They would have to double it in Ch1 and Ch2, but leave it out of Ch3. As a bonus, we get to use some skills 2x as much.

/not signed

_Zexion

Inari · Mar 27, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Well, why not simply make the skills usable only in their respective campaign?
If they are indeed allow to put two identical skills in the skill bar, than it's rather stupid.

If that is the case, than I /sign. If its only skill names, as in lets say, use crystal wave on the prophecies map, and the new named skill in factions map, but NOT allowing both skills in the same toolbar, than /not signed.

Yanman.be · Mar 27, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

the doubled skills might be overpowered: the R/N touch ranger is now nearly indestructible, using only 2 skills to dmg AND heal, and the rest can be stances and utility ( throw dirt, plague touch )

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 27, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Wait a second...

Is there are duped Exe. Strike?

W00H00!!!

Eviscerate, Exe. Strike x2, Swift Chop finisher!!!

W000HAH!!!!

Kool Pajamas · Mar 27, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

At first I was a bit upset but if these really are bonus skills over top of the promised new ones then this is a really good thing.

CKaz · Mar 27, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i made no comment about balance except that izzy (dev who does balance issues?) would be more able to judge than you are.

izzy seems to think it wont upset the balance so i go by him not you

And that's fine.
As we all know nothing gets re-balanced over time through testing and time in GW

I'm not saying there wasn't consideration - I'm sure there was.
But yeah there's more than a few that seem off I'll be testing when it goes live.
I'm really not going to dig into it tho - a couple involve already (too) popular builds.

But that waits until release, and I wasn't really focusing on the balancing in the end.
I'll repost here what I had in another thread - random naming bites IMO.
Nightmare for fansites and those of us trying to keep up with everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

See here's the problem if you don't leverage core skills or come up with some kind of better way to do this - lets fast forward to chapter 8 and what might happen.

Ooh look here we have -

Vampric Touch
Vampric Bite
Vampric Grope
Vampric Squeeze
Vampric Maul
Vampric Slap
Vampric Pinch
Vampric Nibble

All that do the exact same thing - and that's if your lucky. Why?
Because it could be all over the place...

Dodge
Zojun's Haste (almost sounds like a IAS no?)
Goober's Avoidance
Morkil's GetoutofaJam
Fangril's Quickness
The Artful Dodger
Avoidance
Tennis's Elbow

Thus it's make more sense to at least start naming smart now if you're NOT going to leverage these as core, which I think would be a mistake. Or name it the same skill, but if it was intended, the skill itself can be placed more than once on a bar, which would be pointed out somewhere/somehow, maybe the description itself.

Chadatog · Mar 27, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

I really don't understand all the griping. None of the skills are exact copies of another. Heck, V touch and V bite are in two completely different atibute lines. They are just similar skills with the same skill wording. The #'s affected by skill points, the atribute itself, the casting cost, the casting time, and the recharge all vary. Yes it gives you the same ability but they are not exactily the same.

EDIT: Actually I was compairing the stats of vile touch and vamperic bite rather than vamperic touch. Should of checked it twice.